Zoo Elephants: tired and retired

[FirstShirt]

Ever wonder what happens to elephants that get old and tired... or who won't "fit in" with some zoo's plans? They used to get shipped off to various hunting "preserves" as fodder for wannabe Great White Hunters who could whack 'em for a pretty price. But that was years ago... times they have a'changed. Check this great site out if you have some spare time for interesting browsing on the net:

The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee,

founded in 1995, is the nation's single natural habitat refuge developed specifically for endangered African and Asian elephants. It operates on 2,700 acres in Hohenwald, Tennessee - 85 miles southwest of Nashville.

The Elephant Sanctuary exists for two reasons:
To provide a haven for old, sick or needy elephants in a setting of green pastures, old-growth forests, spring-fed ponds and a heated barn for cold winter nights.
To provide education about the crisis facing these social, sensitive, passionately intense, playful, complex, exceedingly intelligent and endangered creatures.

While there, follow the links and go read about Misty. In fact, follow all the links and read about all of them. Some of their stories are pitiful indeed.. but all mostly with happy endings.

Here's the link: http://www.elephants.com/

Enjoy! Let me know what you think...

BT

[Jay]

Ever wonder what happens to elephants that get old and tired... or who won't "fit in" with some zoo's plans? They used to get shipped off to various hunting "preserves" as fodder for wannabe Great White Hunters who could whack 'em for a pretty price. But that was years ago... times they have a'changed. Check this great site out if you have some spare time for interesting browsing on the net:

The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee,

founded in 1995, is the nation's single natural habitat refuge developed specifically for endangered African and Asian elephants. It operates on 2,700 acres in Hohenwald, Tennessee - 85 miles southwest of Nashville.
BT

Well, that's interesting. It may not be true, but it is interesting. I worked with elephants for nearly 20 years, and never once heard of one being shipped off to a hunting "preserve".

I'm also familiar with Carol Buckley's place in Hohenwald. She called a few times while it was being set up; we talked about containment systems. TVA placed a lot of drilling pipe which was used for fence-posts, and we discussed various cableing strategies to complete the containment system.

Over in Arkansas, Scott and Heidi Riddle have a similar compound set up for elephants.

Jay

[FirstShirt]

Well, that's interesting. It may not be true, but it is interesting. I worked with elephants for nearly 20 years, and never once heard of one being shipped off to a hunting "preserve".

I'm also familiar with Carol Buckley's place in Hohenwald. She called a few times while it was being set up; we talked about containment systems. TVA placed a lot of drilling pipe which was used for fence-posts, and we discussed various cableing strategies to complete the containment system.

Over in Arkansas, Scott and Heidi Riddle have a similar compound set up for elephants.

Jay

I don't know if any Stateside hunting preserves took eles... that occured mainly in forreign countries. But Stateside HPs sure took just about any other animals declared no longer fit --for whatever reason-- and put them up for "sale"... specially big cats. You betcha!

You're about to quit the zoo, Jay. Why not look into one of these sanctuaries as your next career choice? I'm sure, with your qualifications, they would love to have someone like you aboard. They need you... the eles need you... what more could a professional ask for?

BT

[Jay]

I don't know if any Stateside hunting preserves took eles... that occured mainly in forreign countries. But Stateside HPs sure took just about any other animals declared no longer fit --for whatever reason-- and put them up for "sale"... specially big cats. You betcha!

You're about to quit the zoo, Jay. Why not look into one of these sanctuaries as your next career choice? I'm sure, with your qualifications, they would love to have someone like you aboard. They need you... the eles need you... what more could a professional ask for?

BT


Ah - rather different, then, as my experience with eles was limited to the USA, Canada, Thailand, and the U.K. It wouldn't come as a great surprise to find the situation you described going on in Zimbabwe, and some of the other countries.

What a couple of USA zoos did, some years back, was this: they sold hard-to-place cats to a couple of private dealers who claimed that the animals would in turn be sold to private sanctuaries. What the dealers did was to sell the animals to "canned hunting" facilities. I don't think it's reasonable to blame the zoos involved, who were likely thinking of actual sanctuaries.

In any case, when what was actually going on became known, AZA tightened restrictions, and forbade movement by sale or any other means to any place that is not AZA and USDA sanctioned. This means they have to pass a boatload of inspections - usually unannounced - by both organizations.

Oddly, this has had an effect that really ticks off folks like PETA: because Carol's place in Tennessee is not sanctioned, AZA opposes any transfer of elephants to the facility from AZA-accredited institutions.

Interesting, isn't it? The very folks who bashed zoos for "selling animals to canned hunt operations" now bash them for refusing to release any animals to unsanctioned facilities. The very actions taken to ensure that animals are not transferred to unscrupulous middlemen, resulting in transfer to shooting galleries, are now being employed to villify zoos for refusing to transfer animals to unaccredited and unsanctioned facilities.

You can't win for losing.

Now as for quitting the zoo, You can believe that I've thought long and hard about the options, Bruce. However, I have a bride with close family ties here, and an autistic daughter. Moving halfway across the country is not really do-able, as it would really upset both. I think the best move is to sit in the area, and keep selling the writing. I need to keep everybody relatively happy, and relatively sane. After finishing up a few projects still underway at the zoo, though, I do plan to take some of the free courses on financial planning.

Jay

[FirstShirt]

>>What a couple of USA zoos did, some years back, was this: they sold hard-to-place cats to a couple of private dealers who claimed that the animals would in turn be sold to private sanctuaries. What the dealers did was to sell the animals to "canned hunting" facilities. <<

It was more than just a couple ,Jay... and it was common place until the pro-animal activists got in on the act and started exposing what was going on. It wasn't the zoos that stopped the practice, it was pressure from an outraged public. You betcha!

>>In any case, when what was actually going on became known, AZA tightened restrictions, and forbade movement by sale or any other means to any place that is not AZA and USDA sanctioned. This means they have to pass a boatload of inspections - usually unannounced - by both organizations.<<

USDA has authority over sanctuaries, but AZA certainly doesn't. It can recommend, it can approve or disapprove, but AZA certainly cannot stop a zoo from closing its elephant exhibits (as half a dozen or so zoos already have) and sending their eles to sanctuaries.

Two sanctuaries capable of taking eles exist: PAWS, in California, and the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee. AZA doesn't have any say over either of them. This from AZA's web-site:

Are sanctuaries good places for elephants?
We cannot answer that question, as neither of the two elephant sanctuaries in the U.S. have undergone AZA review and thus have not been certified by AZA. AZA has an accreditation process for zoos and aquariums, as well as a certification process for animal care facilities that are not open to the public, such as wildlife research organizations, nature centers and sanctuaries.

http://www.aza.org/AboutAZA/ElephantQA/#1

Sooo... in spite of AZA not certifying those facilties, zoos --specifically SF Zoo and the Detroit Zoo-- closed their ele exhibits and sent the eles to one or the other of those two sanctuaries.

Your old fave organization, HSUS <GG>, has plenty to say about these elephants, and I think they trump the AZA attitude, (is AZA is adamant about plcing eles, as you say). This from the HSUS site (and the following are only extracts... use the link to go read the full article):

HSUS applauds SF Zoo for their decision to send their eles to PAWS sanctuary...

In the past decade, there has been some change in the management of zoo elephants, but those changes have come slowly and have not always improved the animals' lives. Some of the change has come from within the zoo community via new American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) standards. These new standards create general elephant management guidelines...

Yet most of these changes don't go far enough, not by a longshot. For example, the new AZA elephant standards adopted in 2001 say, correctly, that it is inappropriate to keep females as single individuals. However, the standards also still permit the use of electric prods in an emergency and the striking of animals with elephant hooks; they set the minimum indoor space requirement at 400 square feet (a 20 x 20 square, for instance) and the outdoor space minimum at 1,800 square feet.

Six zoos, both AZA accredited and otherwise, have stopped displaying elephants for good.

There are two facilities in the United States (the Performing Animal Welfare Society's ARK 2000 in California, and the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee) that have demonstrated a better way to keep elephants. Although a perfect captive setting is impossible, these facilities provide an elephant environment that is a world apart from the typical zoo, and they should be viewed as examples of what can be done for the welfare of elephants.
http://www.hsus.org/wildlife/wildlife_news/detroit_zoo_sends_its_elephants_packing_should_oth ers_follow_suit.html


So I'm not sure what you're saying here, Jay (in the following quote). It seems you're bashing AZA... and if that's true I agree. But I don't see any pro-animal org out there complaining about these latest moves by the zoos to retire their eles and place them in sanctuaries:

>>The very folks who bashed zoos for "selling animals to canned hunt operations" now bash them for refusing to release any animals to unsanctioned facilities. The very actions taken to ensure that animals are not transferred to unscrupulous middlemen, resulting in transfer to shooting galleries, are now being employed to villify zoos for refusing to transfer animals to unaccredited and unsanctioned facilities.<<<

See? AZA simply is not authroized or empowered to refuse to "allow" transferring eles annywhere, far as I can see. Just as well too, I guess.

BT.

[Jay]

>It was more than just a couple ,Jay... and it was common place until the pro-animal activists got in on the act and started exposing what was going on. It wasn't the zoos that stopped the practice, it was pressure from an outraged public. You betcha!<

Actually, I have to disagree. The dealers involved were, to the best of my knowledge, two. AZA was pretty surprised by this, from material I've seen, which is why they tightened the restrictions down.

>USDA has authority over sanctuaries, but AZA certainly doesn't. It can recommend, it can approve or disapprove, but AZA certainly cannot stop a zoo from closing its elephant exhibits (as half a dozen or so zoos already have) and sending their eles to sanctuaries.<

I believe that two have done this, and their accreditation in AZA is now under review, pending revocation.

>Two sanctuaries capable of taking eles exist: PAWS, in California, and the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee. <

That information is erroneous. There exists at least another, as mentioned earlier. BTW, PAWS is run by Pat Derby. Do you actually know anything about her? And how far back have you traced Carol Buckley? All the way to Racine, Wisconsin? Somehow, I doubt it.

Several zoos have stopped exhibiting elephants, you betcha. That's because if you can't house at least half a dozen, including bulls, AZA is now requiring that you not house them at all.

Jay

[FirstShirt]

>>Actually, I have to disagree. The dealers involved were, to the best of my knowledge, two. AZA was pretty surprised by this, from material I've seen, which is why they tightened the restrictions down. <<

Jay, these so-called hunting preserves go back many years... I first heard about them in the late 80's early 90s. AZA didn't come into being until around 2000 or 2001!

>>>I believe that two have done this, and their accreditation in AZA is now under review, pending revocation.<<<

Six. I quoted a part of the article, and presented a link to it. It's right there on the board...

>>>That information is erroneous. There exists at least another, as mentioned earlier. <<<

As mentioned "where" earlier? If you know of any elephant sanctuaries the size of PAWS of the one in Tnn., please, link us! I'd be glad to see them.

>> BTW, PAWS is run by Pat Derby. Do you actually know anything about her? And how far back have you traced Carol Buckley? All the way to Racine, Wisconsin? Somehow, I doubt it. <<<

And your point is... ???

>>>Several zoos have stopped exhibiting elephants, you betcha. That's because if you can't house at least half a dozen, including bulls, AZA is now requiring that you not house them at all.<<<

Nice try... but AZA doesn't even recognize sanctuaries as a choice. IT advocates moving eles from one zoo to znother... even if the zoo releasing its' eles does so FOR ETHICAL REASONS! Soooo... why move eles from one zoo to another zoo? For breeding purposes, maybe?

Oh yeah, AZA advocates that aspect of ele "care" too.

Google the internet... there's quite a bash going on between AZA and TAOS (The Association Of Sanctuaries). Some AZA guy writes a critique bashing sanctuaries over zoos... and TAOS fires back.

Makes for interesting reading. <s>

BT

[FirstShirt]

>>Actually, I have to disagree. The dealers involved were, to the best of my knowledge, two. AZA was pretty surprised by this, from material I've seen, which is why they tightened the restrictions down. <<

Jay, these so-called hunting preserves go back many years... I first heard about them in the late 80's early 90s. AZA didn't come into being until around 2000 or 2001!

>>>I believe that two have done this, and their accreditation in AZA is now under review, pending revocation.<<<

Six. I quoted a part of the article, and presented a link to it. It's right there on the board...

>>>That information is erroneous. There exists at least another, as mentioned earlier. <<<

As mentioned "where" earlier? If you know of any elephant sanctuaries the size of PAWS or the one in Tenn., please, link us! I'd be glad to see them.

>> BTW, PAWS is run by Pat Derby. Do you actually know anything about her? And how far back have you traced Carol Buckley? All the way to Racine, Wisconsin? Somehow, I doubt it. <<<

And your point is... ???

>>>Several zoos have stopped exhibiting elephants, you betcha. That's because if you can't house at least half a dozen, including bulls, AZA is now requiring that you not house them at all.<<<

Nice try... but AZA doesn't even recognize sanctuaries as a choice. IT advocates moving eles from one zoo to znother... even if the zoo releasing its' eles does so FOR ETHICAL REASONS! Soooo... why move eles from one zoo to another zoo? For breeding purposes, maybe?

Oh yeah, AZA advocates that aspect of ele "care" too.

Google the internet... there's quite a bash going on between AZA and TAOS (The Association Of Sanctuaries). Some AZA guy writes a critique bashing sanctuaries over zoos... and TAOS fires back.

Makes for interesting reading. <s>

BT

[FirstShirt]

So who is this TAOS that I mentioned in another post? Who are these upstarts who would dare face down the likes of AZA <who who?>

Here they are for y'all to see. The Association Of Sanctuaries... been around for about 15 years now (as opposed to AZA's four to five year existence). Check 'em out... tell us what you think of them. From their intro:

About Us

What is The Association of Sanctuaries (TAOS)?

TAOS was founded in 1992 as a not-for-profit organization to assist sanctuaries in providing quality rescue and care for displaced animals. We accredit superior sanctuaries for wild, farmed, and companion animals. We work to improve the quality of life of sanctuary animals and to be a voice for change in the attitudes that lead to the need for sanctuaries.

http://www.taosanctuaries.org/about/index.htm

Now you've read about them... aincha glad they're around?

BT

[FirstShirt]

I p[osted about the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee... and mentioned a second one, PAWS. For those of you who might be interested, here's a link to the PAWS site.

From their intro:

The Performing Animal Welfare Society is a place where abandoned or abused performing animals and victims of the exotic animal trade can live in peace and contentment.

PAWS is a true sanctuary -- a permanent home where animals come first.

Founded by Hollywood animal trainer and author, Pat Derby, and partner, Ed Stewart, PAWS maintains 3 sanctuaries for captive wildlife -- 30 acres in Galt, California, and 100 acres (the Amanda Blake Wildlife Refuge) in Herald, California. PAWS is also in Phase I development of . "Ark 2000", 2300 acres of beautiful natural habitat in San Andreas, CA.

http://www.pawsweb.org/site/homepage.htm

A respectable alternative for tired and retired eles after their lifetime in a zoo, wouldn't you say?

BT

[Jay]

[QUOTE=FirstShirt]
Jay, these so-called hunting preserves go back many years... I first heard about them in the late 80's early 90s. AZA didn't come into being until around 2000 or 2001!

Quite right, Bruce. In the many years prior to that, it was called the AAZPA (American Association of Zoological Parks and Aquariums). For some mysterious reason, they shortened it to AZA a few years ago. What with all the web "research" you do, I'm surprised you didn't pick that up. In any case, the organization has become considerably more aggressive over the years. When they do inspections, the facility in question has to open its finances, animal transit records, health records, and submit to inspection of every aspect of the operation on the grounds.

As well, I mentioned the Riddle facility in Arkansas. I'm not about to go back through the prior posts just because you don't feel like doing so.

>> BTW, PAWS is run by Pat Derby. Do you actually know anything about her? And how far back have you traced Carol Buckley? All the way to Racine, Wisconsin? Somehow, I doubt it. <<<

And your point is... ???

My point is that as you have not researched the operators, you don't really know anything about them, and you assume that they are just wonderful people - without having bothered with looking into them. I'm not saying that they are horrible people, but everybody has history, and I suggest that you have not bothered to check the histories out.

To hear you tell it, the web is the be all and the end all. As I have attempted to point out in past discussions, the web is merely a starting point.

>>>Several zoos have stopped exhibiting elephants, you betcha. That's because if you can't house at least half a dozen, including bulls, AZA is now requiring that you not house them at all.<<<

Nice try... but AZA doesn't even recognize sanctuaries as a choice. IT advocates moving eles from one zoo to znother... even if the zoo releasing its' eles does so FOR ETHICAL REASONS! Soooo... why move eles from one zoo to another zoo? For breeding purposes, maybe?

It is not a "nice try" - it just happens to be a fact. The two you mention will not undergo rigorous examination. By contrast, AZA works with many privately held facilities that do adhere to standards and that have no fear of examination. Our zoo works closely with a private facility that conforms to standards.


Oh yeah, AZA advocates that aspect of ele "care" too.

Breeding elephants, is that what you mean? I'm sorry, but you have become less lucid, so I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

AZA does advocate controlled breeding (particularly of critically endangered Asian elephants) in order to enhance the available gene pool. Do you know how many Asian elephants are left on the planet? Do you know how many of these animals are past reproductive age? Google your heart out. You still won't come up with the answer. I wrote about this issues a few years ago. Google your heart out. You won't find it online. You'd have to go to a library.

So, let's get a couple of things straight up front, Bruce: I won't tell you all about the ins and outs of the Marines. You do your best not to tell me all about the ins and outs of Asian elephant management. I've never been in the Marines, so I'm not about to presume to tell you what it's really all about. You've never spent around 20 years living and working with Asian elephants in several lands, and so I don't think you are really in any position to tell me what that's all about.

If you want to talk about elephants, fine - just don't pretend to knowledge and experience that you lack. You can't get that from the web.

Jay

[FirstShirt]

Oh no, please... not another rant about "I'm credantialed so I know... and you don't."

Don't lose track of the thread... we're talking about tired and retired eles going to a couple of sanctuaries who --in spite of your insistence they don't belong there-- appear to do a remarkable job tending to the needs of these great creatures. More so than all too many zoos, obviously... or there wouldn't BE a need for sanctuaries in the first place.

Earlier I said >>AZA didn't come into being until around 2000 or 2001! <<

You replied >>Quite right, Bruce. <<

Well, I wasn't correct, sire... and neither were you. I'm surpised, considering your level of involvement, you didn't catch the error. Here are the facts as presented by AZA itself.:

The American Association of Zoological Parks and Aquariums (AAZPA) was first organized in 1924 as an affiliate of the American Institute of Park Executives (AIPE). AAZPA's early goal was to provide a professional forum for information exchange among zoo and aquarium professionals.

To establish an international presence and keep pace with a growing number of legislative and conservation issues, the Executive Office was moved to Bethesda, Maryland, in 1992; and the Wheeling Office became the Office of Membership Services. And, on 1 January 1994, the Association's nickname was changed to the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA).

Here's the link: http://www.aza.org/AboutAZA/BriefHistory/

I know how you hold the internet in not very high regard, but that's one web site I would suggest you visit in order to learn a tad about AZA for the next round of debates... sometime... maybe. <s>

>>>My point is that as you have not researched the operators, you don't really know anything about them, and you assume that they are just wonderful people - without having bothered with looking into them. I'm not saying that they are horrible people, but everybody has history, and I suggest that you have not bothered to check the histories out.<<<

I still don't get it, Jay. Do YOU know something bad about these people or are you engaging in character assassination in order to make some obscure point?

If you don't like that sanctuary for some reason, or the people running it, put some facts and figures up here on the board.

Do you have anything of substance... or just innuendo? I just don't get it.

>>It is not a "nice try" - it just happens to be a fact. The two you mention will not undergo rigorous examination. By contrast, AZA works with many privately held facilities that do adhere to standards and that have no fear of examination. Our zoo works closely with a private facility that conforms to standards.<<

Name it... is it a sanctuary? Or is it a breeding facility? Do tired and retired eles go there for R & R... ?? What is it?

>>>AZA does advocate controlled breeding (particularly of critically endangered Asian elephants) in order to enhance the available gene pool. <<<

I know... the link to their web site is here in this thread! I put it there... so anyone who wants to know can meet you over there and learn about them. <G>

>> Do you know how many Asian elephants are left on the planet? Do you know how many of these animals are past reproductive age? Google your heart out. You still won't come up with the answer. <<

IUCN Status: Endangered The IUCN's Species Survival Commission's Asian Elephant Specialist Group estimates that there are approximately 38,000 to 51,000 wild Asian elephants. In comparison, there are more than 600,000 African elephants.

http://www.thewildones.org/Animals/elephant.html

I love that Google... it'll help you find a ton of information on the internet... from sources both incredible and --as in this case-- credible. <smile>

I'll ignore your parting shot... it really should be quite beneath you. I will only point out... it's usually considered a violation of Staff protocol for staff to emphasize a member's lack of knowledge (assuming the member exhibits such). Staff is also section and thread moderators whose job it is to move a thread forward smoothly... and as the in-house expert on a subject, that staffer should at least make an attempt to post facts and figures, argument and source, to make a point and not keep demanding the member under fire "go to the library."

You're the expert, Jay... post what you know on the board... make your point... quote your source... and refrain from mentioning the United States Marines in the context of these exchanges... for I find that tendency to be extremely offensive.

Now... back on track... and keep in mind this thread is about sanctuaries... not Iraq.

BT

[FirstShirt]

This elephant sanctuary was mentioned in passing by Jay, but he didn't bring anything to the board we could link on to go take a look... so I took the initiative. Here it is... Riddle's Elephant and Wildlife Sanctuary in Arkansas. A small place by some standards (330 acres holding 12 elephants... but beats the zoos by a long shot).

From the web site:

Riddle's Elephant and Wildlife Sanctuary

was established by Scott and Heidi Riddle in 1990 on 330 acres in the Ozark Mountain foothills in Arkansas as a non-profit
[IRS 501(C)(3) EIN-71-0694957] home for elephants needing one for
any reason. This is the only internationally recognized sanctuary that
accepts any elephant regardless of species, gender, or disposition.

This Arkansas elephant sanctuary currently houses Asian elephants
and African elephants and both males and females. Elephant care
and elephant management are taught at this elephant haven in the
peaceful Arkansas countryside. Programs include
Elephant ExperienceWeekends and an annual International School for Elephant Management
Major goals of the sanctuary include the care of the resident elephant
herd, but also elephant conservation in general, helping to ensure the
long-term survival of these magnificent and highly endangered species.
Visit our site to learn how you can help elephants or to "adopt" an
elephant!

http://www.elephantsanctuary.org/default2.asp


Cheers

BT

[Jay]

>Oh no, please... not another rant about "I'm credantialed so I know... and you don't."<

Oddly, I said nothing like that. I said that I don't know anything about the Marines, which you so often hold up as your claim to fame. And then I noted that you really don't know much about elephants.

Both of these are facts. I readily admit that I've spent no time in the Marines, so I concede that you just might possibly have a bit more insight than I do into that part of life. By contrast, you seem unable to accept the fact that I have lived among elephants on several continents over a period of many years - you have not - yet this fact doesn't seem to detract from your ability to to tell me what is or is not true in regard to elephant management.

That's ok. Keep Googling on.

Jay

[FirstShirt]

>Oh no, please... not another rant about "I'm credantialed so I know... and you don't."<

Oddly, I said nothing like that. I said that I don't know anything about the Marines, which you so often hold up as your claim to fame. And then I noted that you really don't know much about elephants.

Both of these are facts. I readily admit that I've spent no time in the Marines, so I concede that you just might possibly have a bit more insight than I do into that part of life. By contrast, you seem unable to accept the fact that I have lived among elephants on several continents over a period of many years - you have not - yet this fact doesn't seem to detract from your ability to to tell me what is or is not true in regard to elephant management.

That's ok. Keep Googling on.

Jay

You said it again, Jay! Look at those two sections I just enbolded (if that's even a word!) You ended your very rude retort with the same declaration of your expertise that I find so uncalled for... that last section I marked.

Look, Jay, you gotta get a grip on what it means to be a Staffer. You can't get in members' face like this because they don't agree with every stand you take. I'll make a deal with you so we can go on without being in danger of attracting Sys*Mom's displeasure. If you want to know how to engage and defeat the enemy... ask a Marine. In turn, if WE want to know how to use bull-hooks, shock sticks or bang sticks to get an elephant to sit/stay... or to stand on it's head... we'll ask you, and accept it as gospel. Okay?

But that's stuff I have no interest in. We're now dealing with tired ,abused sick eles and their RIGHT to peace and quiet in a spacious environment... to wit, sanctuaries. That's all. I can't figure for the life of me why you're taking such a vehement exception to the topic. So far you haven't been right, or even enlightening, about the subject. So please, enough already.

Peace

BT

[Jay]

You said it again, Jay! Look at those two sections I just enbolded (if that's even a word!) You ended your very rude retort with the same declaration of your expertise that I find so uncalled for... that last section I marked.

Look, Jay, you gotta get a grip on what it means to be a Staffer. You can't get in members' face like this because they don't agree with every stand you take. I'll make a deal with you so we can go on without being in danger of attracting Sys*Mom's displeasure. If you want to know how to engage and defeat the enemy... ask a Marine. In turn, if WE want to know how to use bull-hooks, shock sticks or bang sticks to get an elephant to sit/stay... or to stand on it's head... we'll ask you, and accept it as gospel. Okay?

But that's stuff I have no interest in. We're now dealing with tired ,abused sick eles and their RIGHT to peace and quiet in a spacious environment... to wit, sanctuaries. That's all. I can't figure for the life of me why you're taking such a vehement exception to the topic. So far you haven't been right, or even enlightening, about the subject. So please, enough already.

Peace

BT

Bruce,

>>Oh no, please... not another rant about "I'm credantialed so I know... and you don't."<

It appears that you don't consider your post rude, but I do.

>Oddly, I said nothing like that. I said that I don't know anything about the Marines, which you so often hold up as your claim to fame. And then I noted that you really don't know much about elephants.<

I stand by the statement, which is neither rude nor offensive, but which is factually accurate. I have never made any derogatory comment regarding the Marines, nor have I ever expressed anything but genuine appreciation for their service to this country.

By contrast, you've gone out of your way to slam elephant handlers and zoos, although you have no more experience in such matters than I have in the Marines.

Further, you attempt to explain to me what it means to be a staffer on a board such as this one - although I've been doing it for a decade.

Frankly, if anybody is getting into anybody's face around here, it is clearly you jumping into mine, rather than vice-versa. I don't much appreciate it.

I don't ask anybody to accept my word as gospel, nor do I defend clearly abusive practices. In point of fact, I have a nice thank you from USDA for teaching a class for their inspectors and vets on the subject of comparative approaches to elephant management in which I clearly demonstrated signs of abusive techniques to look for.

>In turn, if WE want to know how to use bull-hooks, shock sticks or bang sticks to get an elephant to sit/stay... or to stand on it's head... we'll ask you, and accept it as gospel. Okay?<

And no, that is NOT okay. If I try to explain proper use of an ankus, you jump in and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Or you may tell me that my terminology is all wrong. You make it clear that you know much more than I do. I find that offensive, just as you would if I were to tell you that your approaches to engaging and defeating an enemy were just so much garbage.

>We're now dealing with tired ,abused sick eles and their RIGHT to peace and quiet in a spacious environment... to wit, sanctuaries. That's all. I can't figure for the life of me why you're taking such a vehement exception to the topic. So far you haven't been right, or even enlightening, about the subject. So please, enough already.<

I'm not taking exception to the subject; indeed, I pointed you toward a place you didn't know about. Nor am I being vehement. I simply note that there are a few things you seem to miss. One of the points: take a look at PAWS and Carol's place. Do you see anything other than cows there? Do you think that maybe something might be missing from the equation?

That's just one of several problems that I have with "sanctuaries" like Pat and Carol run. It sounds all warm and fuzzy. Gee. What about the boys?

Jay

[FirstShirt]

>>It appears that you don't consider your post rude, but I do.<<

I consider my response an appropriate one for the hyperbole I was replying to.

>>By contrast, you've gone out of your way to slam elephant handlers and zoos, <<


I brought issues I read about or heard about in newspapers or news reports. The fact one of the more aggregious events took place at the zoo where you work, involving elephants you've worked with for lo these many years... I hoped you would clarify or expand on the event. You chose not to do so. Oh well...

>>Further, you attempt to explain to me what it means to be a staffer on a board such as this one - although I've been doing it for a decade.<<

I also had to do so when you were an SL on the board I was managing on GEnie. It has always been my position, both as a staffer and Sysop... that it's staff's job to encourage participation, even when they don't agree with the issue. Staff is NOT free to insult members or denigrate their participation on the board... except when they start to go "free fire." (And that's when I stepped in).

>>> One of the points: take a look at PAWS and Carol's place. Do you see anything other than cows there? Do you think that maybe something might be missing from the equation? That's just one of several problems that I have with "sanctuaries" like Pat and Carol run. It sounds all warm and fuzzy. Gee. What about the boys?<<<

FINALLY! A question I can't answer... a REAL issue worth dealing with! So I went to the... uh... uh... <sigh>

You're right! All the eles at PAWS and Elephant Sanctuary are female... with only Riddle's Sanctuary taking ANY elephant, african or asian, male or female.

"What's that all about" I wondered... and browsed and searched and looked on the... um... um... <sigh><again>.

On the Elephant Sanctuary site I found this... only a partial answer to the question: they have posted "Why Only Females" on their site. (But better than no answer at all):

It is not natural for adult female and male Asian elephants to live together. Asian elephants are matriarchal by nature; they live in herds of related females and only very young ( nursing ) males. Even more interesting is that the female herds are made up of related females; the grandmother, mothers, aunts, sisters, and nieces. They are truly a family, led by the oldest, wisest female.

More on this subject can be found at:

http://www.elephants.com/females.htm

I also learned that bulls are solitary animals... bulls are more difficult to handle than females... there are more females in zoos and circuses... ergo, more females than males in sanctuaries. That made sense, but that didn't answer the Q what happens to tired and retired male eles?

One place that took 'em: Riddles. Takes african and asian... male and female.

Well, I thought, how would that work, if the sanctuary allows the eles to freely roam (within safe limits)? Guess what!

Browsing the um... uh... er... <koff> internet I came across this critique of Riddle's Sanctuary, quoted here in part:

The Joys and Rewards of Animal Rescues - ELEPHANT SANCTUARIES: TOO FEW FOR TOO MANY.

An altogether different sort of place is Riddle’s three-hundred acre Elephant and Wildlife Sanctuary, which was founded in 1990 by Scott and Heidi Riddle. It is located in the Ozark Mountain foothills in Arkansas and accepts both Asian and African elephants and both male and female, regardless of their physical or psychological conditions, “size or temperament.” This struck me as very odd, since African and Asian elephants are different species, and male and female elephants do not mingle, except during mating periods. How could these different species and sexes roam free on about three hundred acres? I wrote to Riddle’s email address with these questions and received no reply. Also, although the title of the facility includes “wildlife,” the only animals at the facility are elephants.

Further investigation proved my misgivings to be well founded. The legal name of the “sanctuary” is Riddle’s Elephant Breeding Farm. Their website is patterned after that of The Elephant Sanctuary, even to their website name, but there the resemblance ends. Although the Riddle’s property is 330 acres, their elephants are kept together in a small four-acre yard and are chained at night in the barn. It is not a sanctuary at all, but a breeding facility and a tourist attraction. Its income is largely derived from an elephant training school and “elephant weekends,” for which the charge is $550.00 per person.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/joys_andrewards_of_animal_rescue/97868/3

Oh my, Jay... oh my. It all got too much for me. I had to log off the er... um... you know... and bring some of the info I found back here. I'll have to leave it up to you, our resident expert.

What DOES happen with tired and retired MALE elephants? If not PAWS or Elephant Sanctuary... is there only the likes of Riddle's left? Hmmm? What?

BT

[Jay]

>I also had to do so when you were an SL on the board I was managing on GEnie. It has always been my position, both as a staffer and Sysop... that it's staff's job to encourage participation, even when they don't agree with the issue. Staff is NOT free to insult members or denigrate their participation on the board... except when they start to go "free fire." (And that's when I stepped in).<

Funny, but Maggie was my manager, not you - and I believe that on that historic site, you encouraged people to post stuff in all caps that read like this: YOU ARE WALKING GRAVEYARDS. If you really want to go back to that history, I can. But I suggest that it's in nobody's interest to do so. And while I neither denigrate nor insult any participants on the boards, it's reasonable to note that in all of the years I've worked with the petsforums group, whether on CSi or here, I've had no significant problems with anyone - with one glaring exception.


>It is not natural for adult female and male Asian elephants to live together. Asian elephants are matriarchal by nature; they live in herds of related females and only very young ( nursing ) males. Even more interesting is that the female herds are made up of related females; the grandmother, mothers, aunts, sisters, and nieces. They are truly a family, led by the oldest, wisest female.<

This contention has been disproven in field studies. Bulls tend to roam widely, but they regularly associate with herds. While the herd makeup is largely matriarchal, it is incorrect to state that it is not natural for bulls and cows to live together. Indeed, if they did not live together for extended periods, the species would no longer exist.

As for the Riddle place - yes, it is a breeding facility, and they do train people in methods for working with elephants in a free-contact environment. They also turn the elephants loose to roam the grounds, knock down trees, swim in the ponds. They also have been in the forefront of elephant research, partnering with Dr. Bets Rasmussen - who, as you may know, discovered the role of the vomeronasal system in mediating elephant chemical communication.

So the Riddles are actually doing something - they're breeding endangered elephants, and working with Bets and other top scientists to help us learn more about what's important to elephants.

Carol and Pat, with their respective sanctuaries, maintain only cows - and they contribute nothing to propagation or even to our understanding of elephants. Sure, their hearts may be in the right place, but that's really not enough. Results do matter, and the Riddle place has a proven track record in results. I must assume that you also know that Carol put "her" elephant, "Tara" on water-skis and towed her around as one of the many tricks. I can't imagine doing that, but as I've mentioned before, there are histories behind some of these sanctuaries.

Now, for the other bulls - a large number are held by private interests, such as Ringling Brothers. RB built a huge facility in central Florida, specifically for propagation, and they've been hugely successful there. They also maintain satellite facilities in Florida for bulls that have become either over-represented in the gene pool or are too old to participate in their programs.

In the zoo world, facilities are now required to be able to house bulls - which is why some are getting out of elephants altogether - and I view that as a good thing. It's clearly a step in the right direction, just in my view. I've long advocated for the establishment of regional facilities capable of providing infra- and extra-structure sufficient to comfortably maintain several dozen elephants of differing ages and genders, which could be accomplished by a fee system in which all accredited zoos in any region divert a percentage of funds that would be dedicated to supporting the costs of the regional centers.

I think things are moving in that direction.

Jay

[FirstShirt]

>>>Funny, but Maggie was my manager, not you <<<

Maggie, eh? <chuckle> I know you have a problem with this, for some obscure reason... so allow me to clarify. Maggie is MaggieMae... also known as Trina. She was the owner of the Forum (like John Benn's peer). Doc Rich was the resident veterinarian... and co-owner of the Forum.

I was Dog's Section leader and came aboard about the time you came on as SL of the Zoo section. During my early stint I expanded the Dog sectiion and brought dog rescue online... at a time people didn't know much if anything about dog rescue, etc.

Trina and Rich liked what I was doing as offered me the position of SysOp/Manager, which I accepted. I performed in that capacity for over a year.

During that time we started an Animal Rights section and brought Debbie Leahy --a very dedicated and lovely woman I met on CIS-- aboard as SL. Then came the hunters... and the breeders... and the "animal exploiters" who started bashing Deb and her POV. It was all very new... and very hot... and extremely enlightening. One of Debbies friends, a VEGAN, in response to one of the AR bashers extreme rhetoic (someting about "I love animals... especially grilled" or some other nonsense) said "IF YOU EAT MEAT, YOU'RE A WALKING GRAVEYARD."

<LOL>

I didn't bring the girl... didn't even know her. But most certainly her words musy have burned themselves into your soul... because you just can't get over that. <GG> C'mon Jay, you're a better man that that... ;-)

So there you go... the troot, so help me God. <GG> Now get over it.

>> I've had no significant problems with anyone - with one glaring exception.<<

I'm from Missouri, Jay... you gotta show me... :schacka:

>>This contention has been disproven in field studies. Bulls tend to roam widely, but they regularly associate with herds. While the herd makeup is largely matriarchal, it is incorrect to state that it is not natural for bulls and cows to live together. Indeed, if they did not live together for extended periods, the species would no longer exist.<<<

The statement didn't say bulls and females don't GET together... because certainly they do... when they're mating! I mean, after all, that's common sense. But all the info I've read (books... plus articles online) say that bulls living with females cause fights, are difficult during musth (ith that the right word?) and in general are kept aprt from the females both in sanctuaries and zoos.

Now I ask, Jay... isn't that true in OZ? Don't they keep the bulls and females separated unless thay want a female mated? Yes or no?

>>As for the Riddle place - yes, it is a breeding facility, and they do train people in methods for working with elephants in a free-contact environment.<<

Thank you! And if it's a breeding facility, why do they call it an Elephant & Wildlife Sanctuary on their web site... when it certainly cannot be considered a sanctuary, specially for tired and retired eles? The sign on their front gate reads Riddle's Elephant Breeding Farm and Wildlife Refuge It all smacks a tad of deception, IMO.

>> They also turn the elephants loose to roam the grounds, knock down trees, swim in the ponds. <<

It's 330 acres... and the eles are confined to I think about 5 acres, according to some accounts. No wonder they knock the trees down... there are 12 eles on the property!



>>They also have been in the forefront of elephant research, partnering with Dr. Bets Rasmussen <<

I don't know him, or off him. Who is he, and what is he about?

>>So the Riddles are actually doing something - they're breeding endangered elephants, and working with Bets and other top scientists to help us learn more about what's important to elephants.<<

Well, I did a search on Scott Riddle... and what I found was a simmering controversy about him. I don't know they guy... until you mentioned him. His claim to fame, it seems, is an an ele trainer, and his methods are quite controversial. In fact, according to an article on the net, he's was fired from his position as trainer at the Blackpool Zoo in England, and banned from the property! Use of an electric cattle prod on the elephants, I think the cause was.

And electric prob? On Eles? <ouch!> And now he runs a "sanctuary" where he shows how to train elephants? Man oh man, Jay... you gotta do your own google on Scott and see what's out there about him.

I did find one site that gave a balanced presentation on Mr Riddle's farm... ELEBLOG, located at http://www.kimwoodbridge.com/elephant/archives/003468.php/

It might be worth your while to check that out and see if it has any value. I'd be interested to see what you think of it.

>>>Carol and Pat, with their respective sanctuaries, maintain only cows - and they contribute nothing to propagation or even to our understanding of elephants. Sure, their hearts may be in the right place, but that's really not enough. Results do matter, <<<

But they say that, Jay. They're not into propagation... they're SANCTUARIES... places where old, sick, worn out eles can spend their remaining years with some sense of peace and freedom. No bull0hooks, no chains, none of the accouterments that are constantly used on eles to their detriment. Just peace and quiet!

Otherwisw thy wouldn't be sanctuaries... they'd be breeding farms.

>>> I must assume that you also know that Carol put "her" elephant, "Tara" on water-skis and towed her around as one of the many tricks. I can't imagine doing that, but as I've mentioned before, there are histories behind some of these sanctuaries.<<<

Not "behind the sanctuaries"... but, yep, Carol and Tara worked in circuses for some years. Then she became enlightened... and turned away from her exploitive ways and to "the ministry" of animal kindness. <G>

>>Now, for the other bulls - a large number are held by private interests, such as Ringling Brothers. RB built a huge facility in central Florida, specifically for propagation, and they've been hugely successful there. <<

See? I knew you knew where "the boys" were... and yet you asked me why not bulls in sanctuaries, just cows. <tsk tsk> That was disingenuouse of you Jay. You knew all along.

Why you just didn't bring that info to the board to present a balanced view of life after zoos... well, I don't know.

It still leaves the question open, though... what happens to tired and retired bulls? Are they ALL exploited for their semen? Do they ever get any rest from the hassle? Is there a true sanctuary open for them anywhere?

BT

[Jay]

But all the info I've read (books... plus articles online) say that bulls living with females cause fights, are difficult during musth (ith that the right word?) and in general are kept aprt from the females both in sanctuaries and zoos.

Musth is the correct term, Bruce - excellent! So many people mess that all up. I think that pretty much any animal with a brain vacates the area when a bull is in musth. I watched a PBS show some time ago, wherein they claimed that a bull in musth is actually in "rut". Very amusing, as the actual video showed a musth bull emerging onto a dirt road, and the herd he encountered exiting stage right, at high speed. "Rut". Right.

>Now I ask, Jay... isn't that true in OZ? Don't they keep the bulls and females separated unless thay want a female mated? Yes or no?<

Um...no. As I've mentioned before, one of the problems with websites is that they are generally built by PR folks - and these people (and their interns) don't usually really know much about animals. At OZ, for example, our bulls are permitted to mingle with the cows unless one of two conditions exist: if a cow is in estrous, or if the bull is in musth.

>Thank you! And if it's a breeding facility, why do they call it an Elephant & Wildlife Sanctuary on their web site<

Umm. Maybe because it is. They allow all kinds of wildlife to inhabit the grounds. They just happen to allow elephants to share the grounds.

As for life after zoos for bulls...gee. I just don't know what to say. OZ has one that was born in 1962, and he's still there, and doing fine. So what is a "tired and retired" bull elephant? Are they all exploited for their semen, you ask.

Umm...no. Our 43-year-old is not a candidate for breeding, according to the Species Survival Plan. Guess we'll just keep him happy and healthy.

Jay